Comments on: Fuck Cameesa http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=fuck-cameesa This is the blog of Ray Frenden, an illustrator. Wed, 16 May 2012 20:53:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-3/#comment-1354 Ray Frenden Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:12:17 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1354 I'm still smarting from $400 (not even my pricing) being "outrageously expensive." Give me a break; le sigh. I’m still smarting from $400 (not even my pricing) being “outrageously expensive.” Give me a break; le sigh.

]]> By: Ali http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-3/#comment-1353 Ali Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:53:40 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1353 Fair argument, saying we need to keep developing styles & new ideas for income. However, the idea that freelancers can live on skimpy-desperate-craigslist fees... well those people need to try living on that themselves. There aren't enough hours in the week to line up the jobs necessary to pay the bills. As for themed contests, they're awful. Would a person work in an office all week on the <i>chance</i> they'll "win" their pay at the end of the week? "Sorry, Bob won this week. Maybe next time!" There are so many things done to artists that would never be tolerated in a salary job. But the main problem is too many artists are doing it to themselves and their peers. I know I've done it, when desperate. We make it possible and easy to get screwed. If the Zanes of the world couldn't find artists who work for cheap, he'd either have to do without, or man up and pay the going rate. Most clients are not going to pay what's fair. They're going to pay what they can get away with. I think what Ray is pissed off with, is that Cameesa is making it that much easier for artists to screw themselves over. Yeah, ultimately the artists are doing it to themselves, but that doesn't make it okay to help them along that route. Fair argument, saying we need to keep developing styles & new ideas for income. However, the idea that freelancers can live on skimpy-desperate-craigslist fees… well those people need to try living on that themselves. There aren’t enough hours in the week to line up the jobs necessary to pay the bills.

As for themed contests, they’re awful. Would a person work in an office all week on the chance they’ll “win” their pay at the end of the week? “Sorry, Bob won this week. Maybe next time!”

There are so many things done to artists that would never be tolerated in a salary job. But the main problem is too many artists are doing it to themselves and their peers. I know I’ve done it, when desperate. We make it possible and easy to get screwed. If the Zanes of the world couldn’t find artists who work for cheap, he’d either have to do without, or man up and pay the going rate. Most clients are not going to pay what’s fair. They’re going to pay what they can get away with.

I think what Ray is pissed off with, is that Cameesa is making it that much easier for artists to screw themselves over. Yeah, ultimately the artists are doing it to themselves, but that doesn’t make it okay to help them along that route.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1352 Ray Frenden Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:46:42 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1352 Matt, the Penguin Science Fiction link on your blog is fantastic. Matt, the Penguin Science Fiction link on your blog is fantastic.

]]> By: Matt http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1351 Matt Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:28:41 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1351 I love when people who have no idea the amount of time and effort that goes into an illustration/design tell you that you charge too much. That's rich. I love when people who have no idea the amount of time and effort that goes into an illustration/design tell you that you charge too much. That’s rich.

]]> By: Loren E http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1350 Loren E Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:48:42 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1350 I'm a firm believer in that you (should) get what you pay for. Unfortunately, it often seems clients will sacrifice quality to save a few bucks (which only exacerbates the issue of crowdsourcing). In my opinion, Ray's work is worth every penny to a potential client; and likewise for most designers/illustrators that value their own time and effort. I’m a firm believer in that you (should) get what you pay for. Unfortunately, it often seems clients will sacrifice quality to save a few bucks (which only exacerbates the issue of crowdsourcing). In my opinion, Ray’s work is worth every penny to a potential client; and likewise for most designers/illustrators that value their own time and effort.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1349 Ray Frenden Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:25:07 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1349 Let's examine the RIAA/illustrator example. You're the RIAA in the situation. I'm the creative producing content. Bands (or, in this metaphor, me) should cut out the middleman who doesn't value our work (you) and sell our music (art/tees/products) directly. My prices are not outrageously expensive. $400 (I actually charge more) for a tee design is less than the Graphic Artist's Guild Pricing and Ethical Standards guide suggested an illustrator charge two editions ago. I assume you like feeding your family, no? So do I. Let’s examine the RIAA/illustrator example. You’re the RIAA in the situation. I’m the creative producing content. Bands (or, in this metaphor, me) should cut out the middleman who doesn’t value our work (you) and sell our music (art/tees/products) directly.

My prices are not outrageously expensive. $400 (I actually charge more) for a tee design is less than the Graphic Artist’s Guild Pricing and Ethical Standards guide suggested an illustrator charge two editions ago.

I assume you like feeding your family, no? So do I.

]]> By: Zane http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1348 Zane Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:13:05 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1348 This sounds like a lot of whinning, times are changing, and in a fast pace industry it is either adapt or be phased out. You have a very niche style, and as the person above me stated you need to diversify your portfolio. I still feel that for an illustration charging 400 dollars minimum is a bit high. It is like the RIAA and MPAA, either embrace the new technologys or you'll be left in the dust. Time to stop whinning and figure something out that'll keep work comming in. I have hired 2 people off of Emptees and they worked out great, I would love to get work done by you if I didn't think it would be outrageously expensive! my .02 cents .Zane This sounds like a lot of whinning, times are changing, and in a fast pace industry it is either adapt or be phased out. You have a very niche style, and as the person above me stated you need to diversify your portfolio. I still feel that for an illustration charging 400 dollars minimum is a bit high.

It is like the RIAA and MPAA, either embrace the new technologys or you’ll be left in the dust. Time to stop whinning and figure something out that’ll keep work comming in. I have hired 2 people off of Emptees and they worked out great, I would love to get work done by you if I didn’t think it would be outrageously expensive!

my .02 cents

.Zane

]]> By: Cj http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1342 Cj Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:27:54 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1342 If freelance should die before i wake... Perhaps the only way to go now is to join a good design firm (few and far between) or become an in-house graphic designer or somethin for a company. Apple must have great graphic designers, for example, because all of their packaging, websites, etc., look legit. Also, some people need to really diversify their portfolios. You'll have trouble finding work from good clients if you only have art in one very specific style. Or try your style on different mediums. Show people how good it can look and how it can apply to their different needs. Get extremely professional business cards with cool embellishments and get them around at the local level. Anytime someone needs help with any design or artwork you can give them your card and tell them to check out your portfolio. Freelancers also have the edge because they're always at least a little bit cheaper than a big ass shitty design firm. If freelance should die before i wake…

Perhaps the only way to go now is to join a good design firm (few and far between) or become an in-house graphic designer or somethin for a company.

Apple must have great graphic designers, for example, because all of their packaging, websites, etc., look legit.

Also, some people need to really diversify their portfolios. You’ll have trouble finding work from good clients if you only have art in one very specific style. Or try your style on different mediums. Show people how good it can look and how it can apply to their different needs.

Get extremely professional business cards with cool embellishments and get them around at the local level. Anytime someone needs help with any design or artwork you can give them your card and tell them to check out your portfolio. Freelancers also have the edge because they’re always at least a little bit cheaper than a big ass shitty design firm.

]]> By: travis http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1341 travis Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:02:34 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1341 and then i go browse e-lance, where most of the art jobs are bid on...so now not only are we already in a field where our rates have not changed in over a decade, but now we are undercutting our worth and other artist's worth by bidding on jobs and agreeing to far lower rates than are even livable for the work done...because of course, they are going to pick the lowest offer regardless of talent or skill. and then that guy is going to get seen and recommended and get more work. and this is why so much corporate or industry work is watered down tripe by someone with poor design skills but does it on the cheap. after a time, the companies realize they do want edgy new visions, but then they come to us, see that we want the fair scale price, and go right back to johnny cut-n-paste. we shouldn't be bidding on getting jobs. this is not construction where no matter who wins, they are all making the same building. if people see our work and want something about our style, THAT's what they should be paying for. lowering our prices to get jobs does everyone harm. sorry, i'm just pissed after browsing elance today..lol and then i go browse e-lance, where most of the art jobs are bid on…so now not only are we already in a field where our rates have not changed in over a decade, but now we are undercutting our worth and other artist’s worth by bidding on jobs and agreeing to far lower rates than are even livable for the work done…because of course, they are going to pick the lowest offer regardless of talent or skill. and then that guy is going to get seen and recommended and get more work. and this is why so much corporate or industry work is watered down tripe by someone with poor design skills but does it on the cheap.
after a time, the companies realize they do want edgy new visions, but then they come to us, see that we want the fair scale price, and go right back to johnny cut-n-paste. we shouldn’t be bidding on getting jobs. this is not construction where no matter who wins, they are all making the same building. if people see our work and want something about our style, THAT’s what they should be paying for. lowering our prices to get jobs does everyone harm.

sorry, i’m just pissed after browsing elance today..lol

]]> By: Daniel Davis http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1340 Daniel Davis Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:55:37 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1340 Yep, illustration AND graphic design are in a big heap of trouble, though most practitioners don't acknowledge/realize it. Yet. Businesses can use a Word template to make a pdf to send to the printer. They don't need us for technical reasons so much anymore... and crowd surfing and clipart lessen our value even more. Young designers and dabblers are likely the ones that we need to reach with this "no spec" message. However, that doesn't really effect overseas folks who'll do work for $7. It's a tough thing to combat. No easy fixes. Yep, illustration AND graphic design are in a big heap of trouble, though most practitioners don’t acknowledge/realize it. Yet.

Businesses can use a Word template to make a pdf to send to the printer. They don’t need us for technical reasons so much anymore… and crowd surfing and clipart lessen our value even more.

Young designers and dabblers are likely the ones that we need to reach with this “no spec” message.

However, that doesn’t really effect overseas folks who’ll do work for $7.

It’s a tough thing to combat. No easy fixes.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1338 Ray Frenden Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:05:21 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1338 Absolutely. You'd think the gradual decline of the photography market taught illustrators to take a different path. Not so; we're obviating ourselves. Absolutely. You’d think the gradual decline of the photography market taught illustrators to take a different path. Not so; we’re obviating ourselves.

]]> By: Michael Camarra http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-2/#comment-1325 Michael Camarra Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:31:34 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1325 It's amazing to me what little respect is given to graphic artist. Illustration rates have pretty much been at a standstill for a looooong time now. This is just icing on the cake. The worst thing is there is always someone out there willing to do it! It’s amazing to me what little respect is given to graphic artist. Illustration rates have pretty much been at a standstill for a looooong time now. This is just icing on the cake. The worst thing is there is always someone out there willing to do it!

]]> By: Crowd Sourcing by Ray Frenden | Illustrationmundo.com A blog dedicated to illustration http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1321 Crowd Sourcing by Ray Frenden | Illustrationmundo.com A blog dedicated to illustration Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:37:47 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1321 [...] part 1 / part 2 [...] [...] part 1 / part 2 [...]

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1320 Ray Frenden Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:33:21 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1320 Absolutely. The Threadless <3's contests stay the line, I think. Absolutely. The Threadless <3′s contests stay the line, I think.

]]> By: Cj http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1319 Cj Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:04:20 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1319 99designs is the fricken worst. people are cheap and lazy and they don't realize what they're getting is shit cameesa should take one from threadless and their themed contests. it generates more traffic and interest without crowdsourcing. of course they're themes are a lot more general and don't have a specific client like Lil Wayne or some shit like that 99designs is the fricken worst. people are cheap and lazy and they don’t realize what they’re getting is shit

cameesa should take one from threadless and their themed contests. it generates more traffic and interest without crowdsourcing. of course they’re themes are a lot more general and don’t have a specific client like Lil Wayne or some shit like that

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1316 Ray Frenden Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:53:12 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1316 The parallels are pretty clear. Spec and themed contests are kissing cousins. Both devalue the industry without doubt. The parallels are pretty clear. Spec and themed contests are kissing cousins. Both devalue the industry without doubt.

]]> By: travis http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1315 travis Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:32:48 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1315 well, this is why (like you said about DBH) i don't like the theme contests so much anymore. many do not give enough time, and are so specific you can never really use them again. i understand from their point of view they are giving something of interest every week, but to artists, it's really a waste of time. this issue you are after though, is far worse and thoughtless on their part. well, this is why (like you said about DBH) i don’t like the theme contests so much anymore. many do not give enough time, and are so specific you can never really use them again. i understand from their point of view they are giving something of interest every week, but to artists, it’s really a waste of time.

this issue you are after though, is far worse and thoughtless on their part.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1314 Ray Frenden Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:29:44 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1314 With the death of print and the rise of crowdsourcing, illustration as a career path has nearly been obviated. With the death of print and the rise of crowdsourcing, illustration as a career path has nearly been obviated.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1313 Ray Frenden Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:21:39 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1313 A lot of illustration sites shy away from having a healthy debate about spec-work as if sticking your head in the sand will make it go away. It's killing our industry. We have to be passionate and focused against it. A lot of illustration sites shy away from having a healthy debate about spec-work as if sticking your head in the sand will make it go away.

It’s killing our industry. We have to be passionate and focused against it.

]]> By: Daniel Newman http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1312 Daniel Newman Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:08:25 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1312 I support what you are doing to defend and educate artist. Both clients and designers need to have mutual respect for a job to go well. This is just absurd. Only in the art world would it be ok to pull of a trick like spec. Thank you for giving it a voice Ray. I support what you are doing to defend and educate artist.
Both clients and designers need to have mutual respect for a job to go well. This is just absurd. Only in the art world would it be ok to pull of a trick like spec.
Thank you for giving it a voice Ray.

]]> By: Ray Frenden http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1311 Ray Frenden Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:49:10 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1311 I try to remain calm and professional. Sometimes calm and professional doesn't make an impact. I try to remain calm and professional. Sometimes calm and professional doesn’t make an impact.

]]> By: travis http://frenden.com/fuck-cameesa/comment-page-1/#comment-1310 travis Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:46:53 +0000 http://frenden.com/?p=255#comment-1310 go get 'em.or better yet, jst fuck 'em and let them fail in their own horrible idea. thanks for warning others though. go get ‘em.or better yet, jst fuck ‘em and let them fail in their own horrible idea. thanks for warning others though.

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